Tertullian (c 200ADish) wrote that one of the chief pleasures of heaven would be watching the sufferings of the damned in hell.
When you think about that, it’s actually quite logical. God is perfectly just, as are his punishments. If people are punished with eternal suffering by God, that punishment is what they deserve and the exercise of it is an exercise of righteous correction. Surely the saints should rejoice in seeing perfect justice being done—if they were sad to see people in hell, wouldn’t that imply that:
- they doubt that the judgment was just
- Satan has won—the saint’s pleasure in God’s presence in heaven is tempered by the sins of others?
C S Lewis’ terrible “The Great Divorce“, which people keep on quoting as through it was a canonical work on par with the Epistle to the Romans, has a version of this argument. He pictures a woman who has reached heaven coming across her late husband, who is stuck in Lewis’ personal version of Hell.
Lewis cannot allow her to feel pity.
“Is it really tolerable that she should be untouched by his misery, even his self-made misery?” Lewis’ narrator asks; is is not true that “the final loss of one soul gives the lie to all the joy of those who are saved”? Poor George MacDonald, coerced posthumously by Lewis to be the guide responds: “That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it…. The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven”
Try getting a modern evangelical to agree with Tertullian—even Lewis can’t go so far as to have the inhabitants of heaven actually rejoice at the deprivation of hell and manages at most a sort of sociopathic contentment.
In fact try getting a modern enlightened evangelical to actually condemn a particular person to hell.
Ye olde fundies were quite happy to say to particular people ‘You are a sinner, justly condemned to fire for your heinous sins’. Look at good old Jonathan Edwards:
The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times so abominable in his eyes as the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince: and yet ’tis nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment; ’tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep: and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God’s hand has held you up; there is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to hell since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship: yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you don’t this very moment drop down into hell.
O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: ’tis a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell; you hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment.
Good stuff. Hellfire and brimstone from a God who sees us as loathsome insects; just like Jesus taught.
Compare and contrast this modern evangelical output, aimed at university students: http://www.credo.org.au/findout/god/hell/
God, because he is just, cannot say that our rebellion against him doesn’t matter. All of us have offended him. We reject God’s commands, which is a personal rejection of God.
When my two year old daughter jumped violently on the back of my baby son, she offended my son but she also offended me. I have been clear with her that she is to be gentle with her little brother. In the same way, when we adults act against each other (in our sexuality misbehaviour, in our selfishness, in banging into each others cars without owning up) we offend another person, but we also offend God.
Our rejection of God’s commands is a symptom of our personal rejection of God. God has been clear how he wants me to live and how he wants me to relate to him. When I go astray I am actually saying to God, “God, I do not accept you as God of my life – I am the ruler – please go away and leave me alone.”
God cannot just say to Hitler that it doesn’t matter and sweep Hitler’s offence under the carpet. And God (because of his justice) can’t say that my offence doesn’t matter, for my offence may be of a different degree – but its antisocial nature is the same.
God in his justice gives us what we ask for. Eternity without him. ‘Hell’ is not the popularly conceived ‘goblins at the end of the garden’, but rather is eternal loneliness … as God withdraws relationship from us.
The greatness of the Christian Gospel is that God is not only just, but loving. In the moment of the death of Jesus, the love of God and the justice of God meet. In his last moments on the cross, Jesus cries out in anguish to the Father, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” The answer is that God so loved us, that he has abandoned Jesus (sent him to hell) to pay the price of our rebellion, so that God could in his love accept us, and yet maintain his justice (and not say that our offence does not matter).
We must accept God’s justice, the question is: Will you accept God’s love … and thank him for Jesus death on your behalf?
God’s just anger and wrath has gone.
In fact, God has been recast as passive—God ‘because he is just, cannot say that our rebellion against him doesn’t matter. … when I go astray I am actually saying to God, “God, I do not accept you as God of my life – I am the ruler – please go away and leave me alone.” … God cannot just say to Hitler that it doesn’t matter and sweep Hitler’s offence under the carpet. And God (because of his justice) can’t say that my offence doesn’t matter, for my offence may be of a different degree – but its antisocial nature is the same. God in his justice gives us what we ask for. Eternity without him. ‘Hell’ is not the popularly conceived ‘goblins at the end of the garden’, but rather is eternal loneliness … as God withdraws relationship from us. ‘
Look at all the ‘cant’s’. God would like to forgive you, but ‘can’t’. God doesn’t actually punish you he ‘gives us what we ask for’. Hell isn’t fire but ‘eternal loneliness’.
They’re prevaricating. It’s not God’s fault he does nasty things to us. No indeed. In fact he doesn’t do nasty things to us at all, no siree. He just allows nasty things to happen to us because, deep down, that’s what we want to happen to us. He’d really love us to be happy, but he can’t go against his nature, no matter how much he’d like to. It’s not as if he is omnipotent or anything, after all.
Why do they prevaricate? Because they no longer believe that eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth is a just and Godly punishment for those who have not become Christians. Because they no longer believe that a burning lake of fire should justly await the girl who served them chicken laska in the university canteen yesterday.
They don’t in their hearts believe that a loving and just God would condemn their coworkers, their children, their friends and family in that way.
Is this universalism? Maybe. But it is a negative version. A version which shies away from hell but does not proclaim heaven. A conflicted, hesitant version. A weak, lukewarm version.
Neither hot nor cold.
live from thessalonica 
In fact try getting a modern enlightened evangelical to actually condemn a particular person to hell.
I think Evangelical Christians believe God judges, not them. If they fall into a Judgement mood, I think that’s the check to be applied.
This post would be more persausive if you quoted some modern American Evangelicals. I listen to Moody radio fairly often with my new commute and you get pretty reasoned commentary on these topics. The speakers don’t skirt the issue of hell and damination in the way you suggest here.
So, Tertullian’s comment about Heaven being some sort of cosmic version that far exceeds the level of cruelty any of the worst blood sports humans on earth have resorted to…is “logical”?
Well, I suppose it would be, when the premise is utterly ludicrous from the start, that a deity who is said to be the author of goodness can somehow also be the most maniacal torturer ever. So, sure, shouldn’t his followers be waiting with baited breath for the day when they, too, can have a front row to watch billions of people shrieking in utter agony?
Sorry, there’s clearly something very wrong with this picture.
I’ve actually written an entire book on this topic–“Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There’s No Such Place As Hell,” (for anyone interested, you can get a free Ecopy of my book at my website: http://www.ricklannoye.com), but if I may, let me share just one of the many reasons from my book why Hell makes no sense.
Imagine you finally do get to this Heaven, and whether or not you’re watching the Hell Show or not, one thing is certain–God actively inflicting the worst sort of suffering on billions of people, and for no good reason!
Most in the flames didn’t even have any idea who God or Jesus was, until they woke up from their deathbeds in Hell.
But you and all the saved, are supposed to be having a fun time for eternity? Really?
No, not really! Because whatever joy you might have would soon be ruined by the knowledge that any deity who is capable of causing such horrific pain for so many for so long, is not exactly the king of being you can count on to be nice to you too!
Afterall, which is easier? To torture billions or to renig on whatever promise he made to you to spare you from the same.
No, it might not be right away, but for however long it is before he does put you in Hell too, you will only be in fear and trembling the whole time, wondering, “When will I be next!”
Of course, this scenario is ridiculous, because the idea of Hell is ridiculous.
THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD, IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT… HELL IS AS TRUE AS HEAVEN.. HOPE THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES INTO YOUR HEART IN TIME, FOR YOU TO GET YOUR ONE WAY TICKET TO HEAVEN
Hi Rick, I’m glad to see you feel so strongly about this, but you seem to have completely misinterpreted my post! Demas
Well, I’ve come late to the party (judging by the dates things have been posted here), but if Rick has “completely misinterpreted” your post, then so have I – because it seems very clear that you are saying that “contemporary evangelicals” are “lukewarm” and are bordering on being “universalists” because they cant and wont subscribe to the horrific garbage of Tertullian. Any “God” who delights in eternally torturing people (in the way Tertullian and Edwards described) and who expects his children to also delight in that blood-bath, is, in my humble opinion, the devil and not God at all. Jesus revealed a loving father who would welcome every prodigal home, without a word of judgment, and a good shepherd who would never stop searching until the last lost sheep in brought home.
(Also, I would stop quoting all those “Gehenna” verses until you read them in the original language and with the cultural and geographic background – Gehenna was the worm & maggot infested burning rubbish dump where the Romans threw the dying bodies of the Jews in AD 70 – in fulfillment of Jesus prediction, it is not some weird place in the astral plane where the Great Torturer roasts people a la Jonathan Edwards)
Let me add .. I’m not saying I think you agree with Tertullian et al – I am simply saying that it is very unclear what you are personally saying in this post – is it a good thing or a bad thing that modern evangelicals are lukewarm universalists? Is that statement even true? What evangelicals? etc – I think your post is rather unclear. I don’t know what you believe, but sentences like this imply you agree with Jonathan Edwards loathsome beliefs:-
“Good stuff. Hellfire and brimstone from a God who sees us as loathsome insects; just like Jesus taught.”
If you mean that literally, then where did Jesus teach that?
If you mean that sarcastically, I think it would help if you were a bit clearer about that.
Thats my 2 cents.
What is an “evangelical?”
I agree with you, I think evangelicals are realising ECT doesn’t make sense and are looking for alternatives e.g.
only a few days a Spurgeon’s College in the UK hosted a conference on
“Is Universalism an Evangelical Option?” (the organiser, which wasn’t me, wrote a good review
http://christpantokrator.blogspot.com/2011/02/conference-summary-is-universalism.html)
I have a condition called neurofibromatosis I was born with it and there is NOTHING that can be done about it. I had a so called Christian tell me once that “because You have what say You have God won’t allow you to have a husband and you should kill yourself” those were her exact words.